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Every year some there are bands that stay home after Regionals but would have advanced if they were in a different class or on the other side of the state.  What if KMEA did something like BOA where the top scores regardless of class advanced. This year we have bands in the low 60s advancing when others 10-15 points higher are staying home. Doesn’t seem fair. 

How about we have a West Regional for all classes and an East Regional for all classes and do it like BOA. That’s only 2 contest sites.  Nobody would have to travel super far. 

Maybe it’s a bad idea, but something needs to change. 

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7 minutes ago, TrumpetIsGod’sInstrument said:

Every year some there are bands that stay home after Regionals but would have advanced if they were in a different class or on the other side of the state.  What if KMEA did something like BOA where the top scores regardless of class advanced. This year we have bands in the low 60s advancing when others 10-15 points higher are staying home. Doesn’t seem fair. 

How about we have a West Regional for all classes and an East Regional for all classes and do it like BOA. That’s only 2 contest sites.  Nobody would have to travel super far. 

Maybe it’s a bad idea, but something needs to change. 

Having only two sites for a full regionals of ALL classes would not be very ideal for capacity and control of the competition regardless of who would host

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Even fewer bands would do KMEA using this method. You’d have some great bands not make top 10/15 overall in the East that would in the West.

I posted this on another thread. 

Have two separate state finals. It would only work in Louisville and Lexington. 6 bands in finals in each class. 1A/2A finals at one of the surrounding large high school stadiums (Eastern, PLD, Lafayette, etc.). These stadiums are plenty big to host and it would give the 1A and 2A groups the opportunity to perform under the lights. 3A/4A/5A at the college stadium. Have UofL/UK music programs supply volunteers to be able to have the man power for both sites.

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19 minutes ago, Brass33 said:

Even fewer bands would do KMEA using this method. You’d have some great bands not make top 10/15 overall in the East that would in the West.

That’s why BOA does top scores from each panel and then top scores overall regardless of panel and then 2 representatives from each class if they aren’t represented.  

If that doesn’t work then why can’t KMEA keep the same layout of Regionals day, but take top 4 of each contest and then the next top 8 regardless of East or West.  That would give us a better representation of top 16 in each class.  

This would obviously require them to invest a little into training the judges to try and get a more even scoring from judge to judge and contest to contest. 

Side note: 80 bands advanced while about 16 didn’t. Not a good percentage. 

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1 minute ago, CrownsPrince said:

I won't be surprised to see the number of bands participating in KMEA regionals and state competition continue to decline. 

Unfortunately picking up your toys and taking them to someone else’s sandbox doesn’t send the “we need change, and we need it now!” message to KMEA that everyone thinks it does. It just raises ticket prices for regionals. 

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I keep hearing that there is supposed to be a meeting first of November for directors to get together and have a proposal ready for change, which will be presented to the MBC.  A few things I've heard is why in the world were regionals held, and then only 1 band was sent home (like 5A). The other was just the sheer amount at laughable judging inconsistencies, which seem to get worse year by year. And yes, I know it happens in other circuits. But it's just so glaring in KMEA right now.

And I totally agree with Prince; I bet the number is into the 80's (down from 97 this year) if something doesn't change. Jmo

Edited by bdit
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I like the suggestion on another thread where they have a bifurcated system, like they do for basketball.  They have a Class A tourney to give the small schools a chance to compete In a meaningful way, but then if you have a really outstanding team from a one A school, they can compete against the big boys.

In Class A band, there is such a huge gap between the top bands and the pack.  Not more than six or seven bands should be going to state.

I wish class awards were given at the end of semifinals.  Then send the top two from each class (and the next 4 highest overall scores) to an overall championship round.

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1 hour ago, Klangfarbenmelodie said:

I like it just how it is. Don’t fix what is not broken. You can’t please everyone 

So you consider having an entire round of marching band contests to eliminate maybe 10 of 95+ bands not broken? Regionals is essentially meaningless right now. It's almost better to cut it completely and send all bands to semifinals using the system as it is currently.

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Wanted to give a few of my thoughts on how I feel things can be changed, but not such drastic changes that people would be overly hesitant of it. Kentucky is slow to adapt to changes, after all.

-

Judges.

- All competitions looking to be KMEA-sanctioned must have KMEA trained judges. This means KMEA needs to offer a time and place to train those looking to judge competitions. It might be a slow burn at start, but it’s the only way to help improve the quality of each regular season competition as well as SMBC.
- All schools looking to participate in KMEA SMBC must attend at least one KMEA-sanctioned regular season competition.
-Those looking to host must attend at least three KMEA-sanctioned regular competitions and must use KMEA trained judges. This is to help boost attendance at competitions, but also can limit how many are going on each weekend. I don’t think KMEA should say “there will only be X number of competitions each weekend”, as this would kill some programs, but they can add requirements that force them to be more active in competitions that other schools are hosting. KMEA could be flexible with the judges requirement for regular season competitions in the first year, as it might take some time to get enough judges trained, but they can give the schools this notice and offer plenty of time for everyone to get trained. Offer training at the KMEA conference, offer training another time or two throughout the year. It needs to happen.

-

Classes A-AAAA are based on school size. Open Division is open for anyone to join.

-

SMBC Format Option A:

Small Division:
A
AA

Large Division:
AAA
AAAA

Open Division:
Open


State competition extends to three weekends

Weekend 1: Small and Large Division Regionals
Regional locations are spread between Lexington, Louisville, and Bowling Green. The average travel time amongst all bands would determine which class region goes to what city. Two for each Small Division class, two for each Large Division class, split between east and west as it currently is. If there are 9 or fewer bands in a region, this would act as a qualifier and all bands would move on to semis. If there are 10 or more bands, then 8 would move on to semis from that region. As there would now be less regular classes, this should mean more at each region and add a bit more meaning to regionals.

Weekend 2: Small and Large Division Semifinals/Finals
The top 5 bands would advance from A-AAAA, keeping finals at 20 bands as it is now. Finals would have two sets of judging panels, Small Division panel and Large Division panel. Each class would have a champion as they do now, and then there would also be a Division champion as well to help increase competition cross-class.

Weekend 3: Open Division Semis/Finals

All Open Division bands would perform in a nice venue (Not UK/EKU/UofL/WKU sized) that would hold both semis and finals for them. The number that make it to finals would be based on the number of participants. Initially, not many would participate in OD. Over time, it may grow. If there are 10 or fewer groups participating, all groups would perform again in the OD finals. More than 10 groups, then 8 would make it to finals. The idea would be to keep as many as possible going to participate in finals to help keep more people there in the stands, and offer these kids a bigger way to finish out their season.  I don’t believe this would diminish the “value” of winning OD, but it helps create a better experience for those bands participating in it, which is why a lot end up in MSBA.


Format Option B:
 

Classification: School Size

Small Division:
A
AA

Large Division:
AAA
AAAA

Open Division:
Open


State competition remains at two weekends, just as it currently is.

Weekend 1: Regionals
Regional locations are spread between Lexington, Louisville, and Bowling Green. The average travel time amongst all bands would determine which class region goes to what city. Two for each Small Division class, two for each Large Division class, split between east and west as it currently is. If there are 9 or fewer bands in a region, this would act as a qualifier and all bands would move on to semis. If there are 10 or more bands, then 8 would move on to semis from that region. As there would now be less regular classes, this should mean more at each region and add a bit more meaning to regionals. Open Division would only have regionals if they grew exponentially, and it would only act as a qualifier until hitting the same threshold listed above.

Weekend 2: Semifinals/Finals
The top 5 bands would advance from A-AAAA, keeping finals at 20 bands as it is now. Open Division semifinals would also act as its finals, crowning a victor that would then perform in exhibition during Small/Large Division finals. Finals would have two sets of judging panels, Small Division panel and Large Division panel. Each class would have a champion as they do now, and then there would also be a Division champion as well to help increase competition cross-class. The winner from Open Division would perform their exhibition during the tabulation period.

-


Why have an Open Division? Open Division could offer a place for some schools that aren’t getting the most out of the implemented system, which will happen under any system. Schools that might choose to go to MSBA or other circuits instead of KMEA, so that their students have a better experience. KMEA has a way through this that they can keep groups that are happy with the current format happy, while bringing back those groups who would choose other circuits or might be considering choosing other circuits a place to be competitive as well. Groups like GRC, Muhlenberg, or Barren. Almost like a circuit within a circuit.


Also, update the sheets. Again.

Edited by Unknown

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5 hours ago, Unknown said:

Wanted to give a few of my thoughts on how I feel things can be changed, but not such drastic changes that people would be overly hesitant of it. Kentucky is slow to adapt to changes, after all.

-

Judges.

- All competitions looking to be KMEA-sanctioned must have KMEA trained judges. This means KMEA needs to offer a time and place to train those looking to judge competitions. It might be a slow burn at start, but it’s the only way to help improve the quality of each regular season competition as well as SMBC.
- All schools looking to participate in KMEA SMBC must attend at least one KMEA-sanctioned regular season competition.
-Those looking to host must attend at least three KMEA-sanctioned regular competitions and must use KMEA trained judges. This is to help boost attendance at competitions, but also can limit how many are going on each weekend. I don’t think KMEA should say “there will only be X number of competitions each weekend”, as this would kill some programs, but they can add requirements that force them to be more active in competitions that other schools are hosting. KMEA could be flexible with the judges requirement for regular season competitions in the first year, as it might take some time to get enough judges trained, but they can give the schools this notice and offer plenty of time for everyone to get trained. Offer training at the KMEA conference, offer training another time or two throughout the year. It needs to happen.

-

Classes A-AAAA are based on school size. Open Division is open for anyone to join.

-

SMBC Format Option A:

Small Division:
A
AA

Large Division:
AAA
AAAA

Open Division:
Open


State competition extends to three weekends

Weekend 1: Small and Large Division Regionals
Regional locations are spread between Lexington, Louisville, and Bowling Green. The average travel time amongst all bands would determine which class region goes to what city. Two for each Small Division class, two for each Large Division class, split between east and west as it currently is. If there are 9 or fewer bands in a region, this would act as a qualifier and all bands would move on to semis. If there are 10 or more bands, then 8 would move on to semis from that region. As there would now be less regular classes, this should mean more at each region and add a bit more meaning to regionals.

Weekend 2: Small and Large Division Semifinals/Finals
The top 5 bands would advance from A-AAAA, keeping finals at 20 bands as it is now. Finals would have two sets of judging panels, Small Division panel and Large Division panel. Each class would have a champion as they do now, and then there would also be a Division champion as well to help increase competition cross-class.

Weekend 3: Open Division Semis/Finals

All Open Division bands would perform in a nice venue (Not UK/EKU/UofL/WKU sized) that would hold both semis and finals for them. The number that make it to finals would be based on the number of participants. Initially, not many would participate in OD. Over time, it may grow. If there are 10 or fewer groups participating, all groups would perform again in the OD finals. More than 10 groups, then 8 would make it to finals. The idea would be to keep as many as possible going to participate in finals to help keep more people there in the stands, and offer these kids a bigger way to finish out their season.  I don’t believe this would diminish the “value” of winning OD, but it helps create a better experience for those bands participating in it, which is why a lot end up in MSBA.


Format Option B:
 

Classification: School Size

Small Division:
A
AA

Large Division:
AAA
AAAA

Open Division:
Open


State competition remains at two weekends, just as it currently is.

Weekend 1: Regionals
Regional locations are spread between Lexington, Louisville, and Bowling Green. The average travel time amongst all bands would determine which class region goes to what city. Two for each Small Division class, two for each Large Division class, split between east and west as it currently is. If there are 9 or fewer bands in a region, this would act as a qualifier and all bands would move on to semis. If there are 10 or more bands, then 8 would move on to semis from that region. As there would now be less regular classes, this should mean more at each region and add a bit more meaning to regionals. Open Division would only have regionals if they grew exponentially, and it would only act as a qualifier until hitting the same threshold listed above.

Weekend 2: Semifinals/Finals
The top 5 bands would advance from A-AAAA, keeping finals at 20 bands as it is now. Open Division semifinals would also act as its finals, crowning a victor that would then perform in exhibition during Small/Large Division finals. Finals would have two sets of judging panels, Small Division panel and Large Division panel. Each class would have a champion as they do now, and then there would also be a Division champion as well to help increase competition cross-class. The winner from Open Division would perform their exhibition during the tabulation period.

-


Why have an Open Division? Open Division could offer a place for some schools that aren’t getting the most out of the implemented system, which will happen under any system. Schools that might choose to go to MSBA or other circuits instead of KMEA, so that their students have a better experience. KMEA has a way through this that they can keep groups that are happy with the current format happy, while bringing back those groups who would choose other circuits or might be considering choosing other circuits a place to be competitive as well. Groups like GRC, Muhlenberg, or Barren. Almost like a circuit within a circuit.


Also, update the sheets. Again.

How would we go about ensuring that there are still enough KMEA-trained judges to host competitions, though? I’m not saying I dislike the idea; judging inconsistencies have kept many phenomenal groups out of finals, including my own band when I was in high school, but might there be a way to grandfather this in?

 

If this change were to happen, we should not expect there to be a huge number of “qualified” judges within the first year, or even two or three. Getting to a judging clinic that you are talking about would take time and money on the part of the prospective judges, and for the first several years, we may not have enough of them going to said clinics to have a viable number of competitions throughout the season.

While the thought of only about 3 or 4 competitions per week may seem alright to some, other small bands who are just beginning to gain or re-gain their footing depend on hosting competitions as their primary source of fundraising. Heck, I come from a well-established and successful band program that has made state semifinals consecutively for the past 28 years, and they still get a large portion of funds from their competition. Imagine how hard it is, then, for bands who are trying to establish themselves, and may not even receive school board funding, because these cases do exist.

 

I do like the plan in theory, but I’d like to see more of a plan on how to successfully implement it in a way that still allows equal opportunity for each band to still host their own competition whenever they want throughout the season if they so choose.

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19 hours ago, Eureka O’Hara said:

Unfortunately picking up your toys and taking them to someone else’s sandbox doesn’t send the “we need change, and we need it now!” message to KMEA that everyone thinks it does. It just raises ticket prices for regionals. 

Amen. Just makes it worse for the people who stay behind.

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Hopefully, change is coming. It is so long overdue. If not, as I have stated earlier, I would say that there will be under 80 bands (plus/minus) registered for next year. Who knows, it could be worse than that.

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2 hours ago, bdit said:

Hopefully, change is coming. It is so long overdue. If not, as I have stated earlier, I would say that there will be under 80 bands (plus/minus) registered for next year. Who knows, it could be worse than that.

Interesting. I wonder what dozen or so bands you think are leaving after this year. That would be a significantly large number of groups to leave.

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1 hour ago, Mike Honcho said:

Interesting. I wonder what dozen or so bands you think are leaving after this year. That would be a significantly large number of groups to leave.

The trend doesn't lie; under 100 to 97 this year. First time ever. 

Why don't you go to the meeting at Central Hardin on November 5 to find out. Why would you want your band subjected to such mediocrity for what should be the most prestigious day of their year? And wait until the recaps come out after Saturday..........this thing will become a runaway freight train. Jmo

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Let’s just change everything to chive participation awards only and be done and maybe no more schools will cry and leave KMEA. Guaranteed if the schools that left were making finals every year they wouldn’t have left. 

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9 hours ago, Klangfarbenmelodie said:

Let’s just change everything to chive participation awards only and be done and maybe no more schools will cry and leave KMEA. Guaranteed if the schools that left were making finals every year they wouldn’t have left. 

That’s not why everyone is saying there needs to be changes. Maybe a few but it’s not the norm. The biggest problem I’ve noticed is the bad judging. And I don’t mean getting bands placed in the wrong order. Most of the time it is close and besides this is a subjective sport. There is no clear point system like in basketball or football or something.  The problem is when judges sheets are left blank and tapes are filled with breathing or comments that don’t make sense. There is no justification for a number they write down. Penalizing a band because they don’t have the props or flags that the judge thinks they should have. Penalizing a band because they’re soloists are really good so they band should play up to their level. Penalizing a band because they can hear the drum line.  My comments are all real. These things are happening. Small bands get penalized because they have poor instrumentation and they can hear individuals sticking out. When the band only has one per instrument or per part you would expect to hear individuals. Blending a small band is much more difficult than a large band. We have bands of 20-30 competing against bands of 80-100.  There is a serious disadvantage to the smaller groups. Same goes for bands of 100 competing against 225. Music effect and visual effect just aren’t comparable with those groups. We have judges that do not have experience being high school directors that are judging. Most that have or from larger programs that don’t understand the struggles of smaller programs. I’m not saying inflate their score because they’re small. I’m saying judge what is there and not what you think should be there. 

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10 hours ago, Klangfarbenmelodie said:

Let’s just change everything to chive participation awards only and be done and maybe no more schools will cry and leave KMEA. Guaranteed if the schools that left were making finals every year they wouldn’t have left. 

No, let's change so KMEA can remain (return to being) relevant. In business, technology, almost any situation, you either evolve or dissolve. If KMEA wishes to remain unchanged, things will eventually change for them, in a worse way then we'd want or deserve for the Commonwealth. Based on trends, it is best KMEA be proactive rather than operate like Sears...

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I can agree that something does need to change with scoring via our scoresheets and the quality of judge feedback but I thought this topic was about the structure of quarterfinals, semis, and finals . I’m arguing that this system is good for our state it gives all bands opportunity to perform at the region level at least. If you don’t like this model then I suggest going back to the way it was in my day. Every band that makes 2 distinguished rating will advance to quarterfinals. 

Edited by Klangfarbenmelodie
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We can't have one band being sent home from regionals. We can't continue to have only 4 from each class move on to the "night show." We can't continue to have an increase in ticket prices. We can't continue to have such poor quality of adjudication (I'm telling you........just wait until we all see the recaps from semis this Saturday........they will be an absolute mess). We can't continue to think that the current system format is the best for our state/students/teachers. I am very eager to hear what comes out of the meeting in November. Jmo 

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I would take top four from each east and west regional, leaving 8 for semifinals. Then take the top 4 from the semifinals to finals, leaving finals how it is. As far as judging KMEA really dosent do a bad job picking judges for SMBC it’s the directors choosing during regular sanctioned contests that needs to be fixed. Only way for that to happen would be to limit the number of contest each weekend. 

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3 hours ago, bdit said:

We can't have one band being sent home from regionals. We can't continue to have only 4 from each class move on to the "night show." We can't continue to have an increase in ticket prices. We can't continue to have such poor quality of adjudication (I'm telling you........just wait until we all see the recaps from semis this Saturday........they will be an absolute mess). We can't continue to think that the current system format is the best for our state/students/teachers.

Playing Devil's Advocate here a bit.

Why can't we continue to have one band sent home from regionals?

Why can't we continue to only have 4 bands in each class make the night show? What does it matter if it is 4 (or 5 or 6)?

Ticket prices going up...over time things get more expensive. Groceries, gas, concert tickets, property, all gets more expensive over time. It happens.

What makes you so certain the recaps will be "an absolute mess" after Semifinals? Because the ordinals won't all be exactly the same across the board for every band? Humans are judging and sometimes they agree and sometimes they do not agree. Each has their own experiences they draw from to get to whatever score they end up choosing.

You list all these things that are "bad". You say how we "can't continue to think the current system is best" but you don't say why these things are bad or even more important, how to fix them.

 

I am not trying to be a jerk - just wondering your reasonings for your statements and if you have any suggestions for how to fix all these broken things.

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5 minutes ago, Mike Honcho said:

Playing Devil's Advocate here a bit.

Why can't we continue to have one band sent home from regionals?

Maybe the better question is, "How did we reach the point that only 9 bands are even bothering to try for those 8 spots?".

Why can't we continue to only have 4 bands in each class make the night show? What does it matter if it is 4 (or 5 or 6)?

Maybe they mean the *same* 4 bands every year (more or less)?

Ticket prices going up...over time things get more expensive. Groceries, gas, concert tickets, property, all gets more expensive over time. It happens.

Got to agree.  What hasn't increased? I'd rather pay $3, but $13 isn't exactly highway robbery.  Its hard to feed two people a McDonald's for $13.  Maybe offer student/senior citizen discounts?

I am not trying to be a jerk - just wondering your reasonings for your statements and if you have any suggestions for how to fix all these broken things.

 

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