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Is the new system working?

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49 minutes ago, Wildcat77 said:

Watch and learn.

 

If any of the current KY bands in 3A or 4A were to try to compete with no props or storyline at state in two weeks, the results would not be good.  I have no clue who Dobyns Bennett is but know they are not a competing band in KY KMEA state completion.  So as far as my argument they are irrelevant.  My point is, whoever the top 4 bands are in two weeks, if you take away their props and storyline, they would not be in finals.  That’s one of the reasons I don’t think Hopkinsville will make the cut this year.

Edited by Optimist
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15 minutes ago, Optimist said:

If any of the current KY bands in 3A or 4A were to try to compete with no props or storyline at state in two weeks, the results would not be good.  I have no clue who Dobyns Bennett is but know they are not a competing band in KY KMEA state completion.  So as far as my argument they are irrelevant.  My point is, whoever the top 4 bands are in two weeks, if you take away their props and storyline, they would not be in finals.  That’s one of the reasons I don’t think Hopkinsville will make the cut this year.

Do they compete in KMEA? No. But they do compete in a circuit that uses the exact same sheets as KMEA and they do just fine without props or a storyline

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2 hours ago, Brass33 said:

Do they compete in KMEA? No. But they do compete in a circuit that uses the exact same sheets as KMEA and they do just fine without props or a storyline

They might do okay "IF" participating in KMEA but I'd put money on the fact that if any of the top four KMEA finalist bands week after next would get rid of their props, storyline and voice overs prior to semifinals, they would not make the finals cut.  The top finalist bands, especially in 3A and 4A are too close together in ability.  Removing the props etc., would eliminate the capture of the effect scores and that would be enough to knock them out of the top 4 placements. 

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4 hours ago, Optimist said:

I don’t think it is possible with the current scoring methodology when facing stiff competition who do have it.   I also don’t agree that everyone wants to see change.  

Is it change if storylines have been around since the 80s and props have been around almost as long? 

 

I mean, how many have done Phantom of the Opera shows and had it follow characters?

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17 minutes ago, Unknown said:

Is it change if storylines have been around since the 80s and props have been around almost as long? 

 

I mean, how many have done Phantom of the Opera shows and had it follow characters?

The fact that the scoring sheets this year give more weighting to the props and storyline is definitely change.

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15 minutes ago, Optimist said:

The fact that the scoring sheets this year give more weighting to the props and storyline is definitely change.

Don’t think there is a ‘Props and Storyline’ sub caption on the Effect sheets 😂

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Just now, Brass33 said:

Don’t think there is a ‘Props and Storyline’ sub caption on the Effect sheets 😂

You know what I meant.  More weighting to the "effect"s captions that is definitely connected to the props, and storyline.

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4 hours ago, Optimist said:

If any of the current KY bands in 3A or 4A were to try to compete with no props or storyline at state in two weeks, the results would not be good.  I have no clue who Dobyns Bennett is but know they are not a competing band in KY KMEA state completion.  So as far as my argument they are irrelevant.  My point is, whoever the top 4 bands are in two weeks, if you take away their props and storyline, they would not be in finals.  That’s one of the reasons I don’t think Hopkinsville will make the cut this year.

This is the worst take of the day. 

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14 hours ago, Optimist said:

If any of the current KY bands in 3A or 4A were to try to compete with no props or storyline at state in two weeks, the results would not be good.  I have no clue who Dobyns Bennett is but know they are not a competing band in KY KMEA state completion.  So as far as my argument they are irrelevant.  My point is, whoever the top 4 bands are in two weeks, if you take away their props and storyline, they would not be in finals.  That’s one of the reasons I don’t think Hopkinsville will make the cut this year.

Hopkinsville might very well make finals, but of course they might not. I personally do not have them making it. They have a larger hurdle to cross this year for a multitude of reasons - NONE of which involve lack of props or storyline. That is one of the most ridiculous things posted on this forum in a long time. With all that has gone on there, it's amazing they have stayed up to the level that they have, and I admire those kids for pushing as hard as they have.


I'm going to be honest. I don't think the sheets matter. At all. Unless they were so drastically different that they tell the judges to do something like "reward 2 additional points for each handstand, reward 10 points if the group gets into a massive battle with their instruments". Music still holds the majority in the weight. Almost all of the SMBC judges come from out of state. They are going to reward bands that are the best visually and musically based on how all of them do in every single circuit they judge. None of them will be looking at a band on the field and saying "OH, this band would've been first in Oklahoma! But, this is Kentucky, so I'll give them third place. Better luck next year!"

It's a subjective activity. If your band marches and performs visually the best, then they will be rewarded. Not based on the sheet, but based on the experience of the judge and what they have been used to. If your band plays the best, they will be rewarded the same way. I do not believe sheets will change the results in the slightest. I do not believe Lafayette has modified their styles due to sheets, they have done so because that's what performers want to be a part of and how staff want to teach. There has not been some drastic change this year, there will not be some drastic change next year. Will there be change? Sure! Gradual change, just as the activity has always seen. I wouldn't have wanted to be in parade drill with high-mark, so I'm glad the activity does change over time

These complaints that KMEA is "too BOA" is just crazy to me. Everyone every single year has always complained about how KMEA needs to push towards BOA-sheets. Now they have. People still complain.

My prediction is that the results for SMBC wouldn't change regardless of the sheets used. My second prediction is that people will always complain about the sheets no matter what they are, as there needs to be SOME reason their group doesn't do as well as others, so it must be the sheets.

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10 minutes ago, Unknown said:

I'm going to be honest. I don't think the sheets matter. At all. Unless they were so drastically different that they tell the judges to do something like "reward 2 additional points for each handstand, reward 10 points if the group gets into a massive battle with their instruments". Almost all of the SMBC judges come from out of state. They are going to reward bands that are the best visually and musically based on how all of them do in every single circuit they judge. None of them will be looking at a band on the field and saying "OH, this band would've been first in Oklahoma! But, this is Kentucky, so I'll give them third place. Better luck next year!"

 

Say it louder for the people in the back

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3 hours ago, Optimist said:

They might do okay "IF" participating in KMEA but I'd put money on the fact that if any of the top four KMEA finalist bands week after next would get rid of their props, storyline and voice overs prior to semifinals, they would not make the finals cut.  The top finalist bands, especially in 3A and 4A are too close together in ability.  Removing the props etc., would eliminate the capture of the effect scores and that would be enough to knock them out of the top 4 placements. 

Dude somebody just showed you a video of a band without props or a storyline that would be in contention to win 5A in KMEA. If Ronald Reagan from 2018 were to compete in KMEA they would wipe the 5A floor. Without props without a storyline. Your argument is void. It is not valid. If a band is good enough they can make finals without props or a storyline. You’re gonna see a lot of bands make finals in a couple weeks without storylines in their shows. Yes everyone in Kentucky has props. There is not anything in the sheets or judging guide that has anything to say about props or if the show tells a story. 

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23 minutes ago, Saxophone2494 said:

Dude somebody just showed you a video of a band without props or a storyline that would be in contention to win 5A in KMEA. If Ronald Reagan from 2018 were to compete in KMEA they would wipe the 5A floor. Without props without a storyline. Your argument is void. It is not valid. If a band is good enough they can make finals without props or a storyline. You’re gonna see a lot of bands make finals in a couple weeks without storylines in their shows. Yes everyone in Kentucky has props. There is not anything in the sheets or judging guide that has anything to say about props or if the show tells a story. 

Totally disagree with you.  It absolutely plays into the effect scores.  

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1 hour ago, Unknown said:

Hopkinsville might very well make finals, but of course they might not. I personally do not have them making it. They have a larger hurdle to cross this year for a multitude of reasons - NONE of which involve lack of props or storyline. That is one of the most ridiculous things posted on this forum in a long time. With all that has gone on there, it's amazing they have stayed up to the level that they have, and I admire those kids for pushing as hard as they have.


I'm going to be honest. I don't think the sheets matter. At all. Unless they were so drastically different that they tell the judges to do something like "reward 2 additional points for each handstand, reward 10 points if the group gets into a massive battle with their instruments". Almost all of the SMBC judges come from out of state. They are going to reward bands that are the best visually and musically based on how all of them do in every single circuit they judge. None of them will be looking at a band on the field and saying "OH, this band would've been first in Oklahoma! But, this is Kentucky, so I'll give them third place. Better luck next year!"

It's a subjective activity. If your band marches and performs visually the best, then they will be rewarded. Not based on the sheet, but based on the experience of the judge and what they have been used to. If your band plays the best, they will be rewarded the same way. I do not believe sheets will change the results in the slightest. I do not believe Lafayette has modified their styles due to sheets, they have done so because that's what performers want to be a part of and how staff want to teach. There has not been some drastic change this year, there will not be some drastic change next year. Will there be change? Sure! Gradual change, just as the activity has always seen. I wouldn't have wanted to be in parade drill with high-mark, so I'm glad the activity does change over time

These complaints that KMEA is "too BOA" is just crazy to me. Everyone every single year has always complained about how KMEA needs to push towards BOA-sheets. Now they have. People still complain.

My prediction is that the results for SMBC wouldn't change regardless of the sheets used. My second prediction is that people will always complain about the sheets no matter what they are, as there needs to be SOME reason their group doesn't do as well as others, so it must be the sheets.

If the judges utilize the score sheets as directed, the effect captions absolutely will  be a larger part of the scoring this year vs previous years.  

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10 minutes ago, Optimist said:

Totally disagree with you.  It absolutely plays into the effect scores.  

To an extent yes. I agree that a band of 70 without props are gonna struggle because the field has no staging. However I promise that if Estill or Adair or Murray or Beechwood or Bourbon or Madison Central or Lafayette god forbid their prop trailer caught fire on the way to semis, would still be performing at the night show. A good show can stand alone with or without the props. And would all still be in contention to win. This is an invalid argument you’re making. As for storylines... I don’t even know how to help you on this. They’re not important. Yes bands use them. Yes they make good shows. But I promise. Bands without storylines will be in finals. Unless you believe a lot of top tier bands are about to sit out to bands less advanced to them at finals.... 

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19 minutes ago, Optimist said:

If the judges utilize the score sheets as directed, the effect captions absolutely will  be a larger part of the scoring this year vs previous years.  

and if you took the sheets from last year and placed them against all of the groups this year, no placements would change at all. A good band is a good band.

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17 minutes ago, Optimist said:

If the judges utilize the score sheets as directed, the effect captions absolutely will  be a larger part of the scoring this year vs previous years.  

They won’t though. They hardly ever have. That’s why we get head scratching results at SMBC every year when band A beats band B after band B destroyed them ON THE SAME SHEETS all season long. We don’t train our judges. They judge how they know how to judge. 

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I also want to point out that KMEA is still a music before all circuit. Music performance is 40% of the total score and music effect is 20% of the finals score and 50% of the effect score. Meaning that props have nothing to do with 60% of the score and should only play into a full 40% if they are on the move then they fall into visual performance. But outside of that literally only 20% of the score (visual effect) should take props into account. If a band plays every piece of music perfectly and marches drill perfectly without props or a storyline or anything big and special they should in theory according to the sheets still score at least an 80. Say a bad judge low balled them for not having props in their show and they get a 5 in VE. That’s an 85. They’re making finals in almost every class with that score.  

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If you want to name a single factor in altering results this year, it is not props or score sheets.  It is the hybrid classification system.  

When we look at the scores the morning after finals, you will see at least 4 bands that were sitting out that would have made finals under the old classes.  

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14 hours ago, Optimist said:

If any of the current KY bands in 3A or 4A were to try to compete with no props or storyline at state in two weeks, the results would not be good.  I have no clue who Dobyns Bennett is but know they are not a competing band in KY KMEA state completion.  So as far as my argument they are irrelevant.  My point is, whoever the top 4 bands are in two weeks, if you take away their props and storyline, they would not be in finals.  That’s one of the reasons I don’t think Hopkinsville will make the cut this year.

You don’t know who the defending 3A national champion is? And we’re supposed to take your post seriously??

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7 hours ago, Optimist said:

Totally disagree with you.  It absolutely plays into the effect scores.  

You’re not wrong in saying that effect can be enhanced by a great storyboard...but to say you’re not winning effect without them is wrong. Also I think you’d be hard pressed to find many competitive marching bands that don’t have some storyline in mind when the show is designed ...even if it isn’t prominent. 


And just look at Lafayette vs. Dobyns Bennett this past weekend. You have a pure example or where a band with props and a developed storyboard going against a band without props just playing some tunes (although I still think they have a concept/storyline). They tied for effect. And the band without props won visual effect. In a circuit that heavily weights effect. It’s just not true that you have to have props and an easily followable story line. 

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14 hours ago, bdit said:

You don’t know who the defending 3A national champion is? And we’re supposed to take your post seriously??

I don’t give a rats —- about bands or circuits in other states.  I’m only interested in KY bands. Regardless of what you all are saying, I the BOA score sheets do in fact give more weighting to effect vs the previous score sheets.  Props and storyline do play into the overall effect of the show. That’s a fact.

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21 hours ago, Saxophone2494 said:

To an extent yes. I agree that a band of 70 without props are gonna struggle because the field has no staging. However I promise that if Estill or Adair or Murray or Beechwood or Bourbon or Madison Central or Lafayette god forbid their prop trailer caught fire on the way to semis, would still be performing at the night show. A good show can stand alone with or without the props. And would all still be in contention to win. This is an invalid argument you’re making. As for storylines... I don’t even know how to help you on this. They’re not important. Yes bands use them. Yes they make good shows. But I promise. Bands without storylines will be in finals. Unless you believe a lot of top tier bands are about to sit out to bands less advanced to them at finals.... 

There are several other bands you didn’t list that could hang with the ones you listed.  Some of the ones you listed might still make the finals cut if you took away the props and storyline, however if they did, it would def change their placements. For example, Estill.  Take away their train related props and storyline, and I guarantee you they would not be a first place contender. Those things are too big a part of their show and the competition in this class this year is much too fierce.

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16 minutes ago, Optimist said:

There are several other bands you didn’t list that could hang with the ones you listed.  Some of the ones you listed might still make the finals cut if you took away the props and storyline, however if they did, it would def change their placements. For example, Estill.  Take away their train related props and storyline, and I guarantee you they would not be a first place contender. Those things are too big a part of their show and the competition in this class this year is much too fierce.

There’s no convincing you otherwise.  Just please agree to disagree.  People have proven you wrong time and time again and you just keep repeating yourself.

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37 minutes ago, Optimist said:

There are several other bands you didn’t list that could hang with the ones you listed.  Some of the ones you listed might still make the finals cut if you took away the props and storyline, however if they did, it would def change their placements. For example, Estill.  Take away their train related props and storyline, and I guarantee you they would not be a first place contender. Those things are too big a part of their show and the competition in this class this year is much too fierce.

You're using a specific example of a show built around a theme, then saying they wouldn't do as well if you took the theme elements out of that show...

 

The argument is that THAT Estill band with a show (of your specific tastes) designed NOT around that specific theme would still have done as well. 

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