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21 minutes ago, BenL said:

My sources say it was personal. Not pink slip

My sources said the other, which is why I edited my comment. Casey Co and those kids have been getting crapped on lately.

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"Ain't no soap box here" but you decided to continue and write a short story about the topic.  You do realize that a lot of the upper classmen in these bands quit to get jobs right? That's the th

John was MNHHS Class of '03, played trumpet, went to Western. Tyler was MNHHS Class of '10, played trombone, went to UK, Eastman, and now studying from CCM. I know both of them; both have go

Good lord, I said I considered many variables, including but not limited to, concert band, marching band, enrollment figures, scores and placements in SMBC and other circuits. I'm sorry you missed tha

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On 5/22/2021 at 11:19 AM, bdit said:

Campbellsville needs to make a home-run hire that can get them back to the Harrod/Imes years. History is there, just got to make the right move. 

I think those were once in a lifetime directors for Campbellsville, that just so happened to be twice in a lifetime. Some schools will only ever truly have success under one director, and after they leave no other director will be able to touch what they did there.

I.e.

Robert Harrod/Daniel Imes - Campbellsville

Eric Hale - Nicholas County

Charles Stewart - Ballard

Jordan Williams - Casey County

Jordan Williams - Paris

Tim Blevins - Boyle County

Gary Mullins - Calloway County

Kevin Christie - Rowan County

Phil Ashby - Warren Central

Mike Clark - Daviess County

Gerald Pickrell - Wayne County

Ann Porter - Central Hardin

Bob Gregg - Williamstown

Stephen Rice - Pikeville

Pauletta Smith - Hazard

Rob Bryant - East Jessamine

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36 minutes ago, FriendsOfMusic said:

Tony Barrett is returning to Lee Co

This is exciting for them! They were my favorite to be the next band to break into 1A finals back in the day. 1A may have a new finalist on their hands in the next couple of years. 

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2 hours ago, Ben Dover said:

I think those were once in a lifetime directors for Campbellsville, that just so happened to be twice in a lifetime. Some schools will only ever truly have success under one director, and after they leave no other director will be able to touch what they did there.

I.e.

Robert Harrod/Daniel Imes - Campbellsville

Eric Hale - Nicholas County

Charles Stewart - Ballard

Jordan Williams - Casey County

Jordan Williams - Paris

Tim Blevins - Boyle County

Gary Mullins - Calloway County

Kevin Christie - Rowan County

Phil Ashby - Warren Central

Mike Clark - Daviess County

Gerald Pickrell - Wayne County

Ann Porter - Central Hardin

Bob Gregg - Williamstown

Stephen Rice - Pikeville

Pauletta Smith - Hazard

Rob Bryant - East Jessamine

Daryl Angel - Dixie Heights

Ok, you’re reeeeeaaaaaccchhhhing on some of these 😎😂

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41 minutes ago, bdit said:

Ok, you’re reeeeeaaaaaccchhhhing on some of these 😎😂

I didn't say all of them were state champions or grand national champion quality, but rather that some of these directors saw success that none of their predecessors were able to achieve. So please, by all means do tell which of these were a reach based on the criteria I set forward.

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2 hours ago, Ben Dover said:

I think those were once in a lifetime directors for Campbellsville, that just so happened to be twice in a lifetime. Some schools will only ever truly have success under one director, and after they leave no other director will be able to touch what they did there.

I.e.

Robert Harrod/Daniel Imes - Campbellsville

Eric Hale - Nicholas County

Charles Stewart - Ballard

Jordan Williams - Casey County

Jordan Williams - Paris

Tim Blevins - Boyle County

Gary Mullins - Calloway County

Kevin Christie - Rowan County

Phil Ashby - Warren Central

Mike Clark - Daviess County

Gerald Pickrell - Wayne County

Ann Porter - Central Hardin

Bob Gregg - Williamstown

Stephen Rice - Pikeville

Pauletta Smith - Hazard

Rob Bryant - East Jessamine

Daryl Angel - Dixie Heights

No Janet Allen for Apollo?

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Just now, The Stig said:

No Janet Allen for Apollo?

The ones I listed were just off the top of my head, but Janet Allen for Apollo for sure pushed Apollo, but it was technically Mark Benningfield who finally broke into finals, albeit only 2 years after Janet left. He had also built the program up to a 3A size band for 2 years, something that Janet had never done. It's all subjective, because after they made finals they had a drastic downfall under his direction as well.

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4 minutes ago, The Stig said:

Drastic understatement. She got more out of me than he did. 

I can understand that. I went through a director change myself, but I don't think mine was as drastic as Allen to Benningfield. I think she's the reason Apollo made finals, even if she wasn't the director anymore, through instilling her teachings in those kids, but her name wasn't attached to the program at that point.

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1 minute ago, Ben Dover said:

I can understand that. I went through a director change myself, but I don't think mine was as drastic as Allen to Benningfield. I think she's the reason Apollo made finals, even if she wasn't the director anymore, through instilling her teachings in those kids, but her name wasn't attached to the program at that point.

I really don't think anything could've been sustained in that transition. There was a lot more at play than just a director change. 

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Just now, The Stig said:

I really don't think anything could've been sustained in that transition. There was a lot more at play than just a director change. 

I'm just an outsider looking in, but based on the record after that finals appearance, it's hard to say that the 1998 season was his handiwork.

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22 hours ago, Ben Dover said:

I think those were once in a lifetime directors for Campbellsville, that just so happened to be twice in a lifetime. Some schools will only ever truly have success under one director, and after they leave no other director will be able to touch what they did there.

I.e.

Robert Harrod/Daniel Imes - Campbellsville

Eric Hale - Nicholas County

Charles Stewart - Ballard

Jordan Williams - Casey County

Jordan Williams - Paris

Tim Blevins - Boyle County

Gary Mullins - Calloway County

Kevin Christie - Rowan County

Phil Ashby - Warren Central

Mike Clark - Daviess County

Gerald Pickrell - Wayne County

Ann Porter - Central Hardin

Bob Gregg - Williamstown

Stephen Rice - Pikeville

Pauletta Smith - Hazard

Rob Bryant - East Jessamine

Daryl Angel - Dixie Heights

"Success" as a band director can be defined in a lot of ways . Assuming you mean finals appearances, some once-in-a-lifetime accomplishments on this list might be more impressive than others. Pauletta Smith from Hazard of all places is pretty impressive. Porter at CH had the benefit of competing in AAA. Even up until recent pre-COVID years, CH would have remained a perennial AAA contender as opposed to "might get a 4th place after the Big 3" in AAAA. Ask anyone from Eastern, CH, Grayson, PLD, etc how they'd fare in AAA vs AAAA whether it's today or back in the early 90's. Their director(s) would be no less "successful" as many of these names. 

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1 hour ago, LongTimeBandMan said:

"Success" as a band director can be defined in a lot of ways . Assuming you mean finals appearances, some once-in-a-lifetime accomplishments on this list might be more impressive than others. Pauletta Smith from Hazard of all places is pretty impressive. Porter at CH had the benefit of competing in AAA. Even up until recent pre-COVID years, CH would have remained a perennial AAA contender as opposed to "might get a 4th place after the Big 3" in AAAA. Ask anyone from Eastern, CH, Grayson, PLD, etc how they'd fare in AAA vs AAAA whether it's today or back in the early 90's. Their director(s) would be no less "successful" as many of these names. 

I'm gonna get some heat for this, but here we go.

Just because you're in 5A doesn't automatically mean you would fair better in the smaller classes.

Considering bands like Eastern, Grayson, Central Hardin, PLD get their rear ends handed to them almost every weekend, every year by bands in 3A and 4A, and some in 2A, I'm pretty sure they would fare slightly better but not make finals (except in 2A), especially in 2019. They might be contenders, but they wouldn't make finals every year. Just like they are contenders now without North Hardin attending and without PLD being in full form, but they decided to run off to "greener pastures" and get it handed to them by even bigger bands. It can be done. You don't have to have 150 kids to make finals in 5A, as bands have proven that it can be done, i.e. John Hardin 2005 and 2008, GRC 2005, Daviess County 2006, Madison Central 2007, Eastern 2011, etc. For these bands, it just depended on what they did after making finals. You can't just become monotonous, doing the same thing that you've done before, you have to keep pushing up and that's the problem that John Hardin, GRC, Daviess, Henry Clay, and Eastern had.  Madison Central missed finals in 2008, but they continued to push and made it again in 2009 and haven't missed since then. Getting to the top is the easy part, it's staying there that's the hard part. It's possible for any band to make finals in any class, so I don't buy the "We would be more successful in a smaller class" argument. The only class any band would fare better in at this point is 1A, and that's only in thanks to the class change. Now with the 6 finalists in every class, bands like Eastern, Central Hardin, Grayson, GRC, Campbell County, Henry Clay, etc. will have an easier chance because certain directors complained and whined until they got their way, but that's a different discussion entirely.

As for 3A prior to the class change of 2005, I again doubt that these bands would have beaten GRC, John Hardin, Russell County, Madison Central, Daviess County, Elizabethtown, Harrison County, etc. I doubt it because I was there dating back to 96. Central Hardin was in 3A in 99 and was 8th,  Central Hardin 9th in 2000, Henry Clay was 6th in 2002, so on and so on. Point being, they wouldn't have faired any better because the performance level wasn't there and still isn't there to beat bands like Bourbon County, Harrison County, Anderson County, Estill County, Adair County, Russell County (who placed 6th in 3A), Beechwood, Murray, etc, they just have a size advantage (and in some cases bands in 4A are larger than most of the bands in 5A these days).

Now, as for the success that is in question in my post, I considered things like placement, enrollment in the program, concert success, and scores in SMBC and other circuits. Yes, some my be more impressive than others, but that's not the point of the list. The point of the list was to show that certain directors understood the job at that respective school, understood the climate, and was able to get the program further than anyone before or after them. 

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Oh, I don't disagree with you for the most part. KMEA had to stop allowing Adair to compete above its class back around 1990 because they, as an A class band, were beating AAA bands. Solidly. By 4 or 5 points at State. 

But I believe when you place the bands and the directors into the band scenes of particular time periods, some accomplishments don't stack up as well as others. And by the same token, some directors who aren't in your list probably would have been save for factors not wholly within their control. But as you demonstrated, that's a very long topic to delve into. 🤔🙂

 

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2 minutes ago, LongTimeBandMan said:

Oh, I don't disagree with you for the most part. KMEA had to stop allowing Adair to compete above its class back around 1990 because they, as an A class band, were beating AAA bands. Solidly. By 4 or 5 points at State. 

But I believe when you place the bands and the directors into the band scenes of particular time periods, some accomplishments don't stack up as well as others. And by the same token, some directors who aren't in your list probably would have been save for factors not wholly within their control. But as you demonstrated, that's a very long topic to delve into. 🤔🙂

 

I can name several directors who inherited band situations with programs who turned things around, but I can also name more than that who can never seem to get anything off the ground and leave due to the situation/factors. My list was simply pointing out directors who all had successful careers at schools that nobody else has seem to have had, even when they inherit a championship program from their predecessor. It's all part of the game I guess. 

As for the competing up a class rule, it has been thrown out entirely. I know of a couple of bands who actually wanted to compete up a class in 2019 to try and test the limits of their programs. It's sad really, but I guess it hurts some programs and directors egos when the "little man" crushes their dreams. We live in a "big band = better band" world, which is sad, but that's the way the cookie has always crumbled.

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3 hours ago, Ben Dover said:

I can name several directors who inherited band situations with programs who turned things around, but I can also name more than that who can never seem to get anything off the ground and leave due to the situation/factors. My list was simply pointing out directors who all had successful careers at schools that nobody else has seem to have had, even when they inherit a championship program from their predecessor. It's all part of the game I guess. 

As for the competing up a class rule, it has been thrown out entirely. I know of a couple of bands who actually wanted to compete up a class in 2019 to try and test the limits of their programs. It's sad really, but I guess it hurts some programs and directors egos when the "little man" crushes their dreams. We live in a "big band = better band" world, which is sad, but that's the way the cookie has always crumbled.

I went down your list, and I think only a couple have ever been invited to perform at the KMEA conference. I totally understand this is a marching band forum, but the concert band is the center of the wagon wheel. We have bands where I bet 1/2 are middle schoolers (even 7th grade), and we wonder what the problem is.......I’m all for a strong 8th grader if they are mature enough.

Also, you can’t really call it a “career” when you’ve only stayed a couple of years at one place and then bolted. That seems to be the norm today. Guys leave or are asked to leave after a few years. I can’t believe the folks that leave at year 4 right before they are to get tenure, and then have to start all over. It’s unbelievable.

As always, jmo....... 

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19 minutes ago, bdit said:

I went down your list, and I think only a couple have ever been invited to perform at the KMEA conference. I totally understand this is a marching band forum, but the concert band is the center of the wagon wheel. We have bands where I bet 1/2 are middle schoolers (even 7th grade), and we wonder what the problem is.......I’m all for a strong 8th grader if they are mature enough.

Also, you can’t really call it a “career” when you’ve only stayed a couple of years at one place and then bolted. That seems to be the norm today. Guys leave or are asked to leave after a few years. I can’t believe the folks that leave at year 4 right before they are to get tenure, and then have to start all over. It’s unbelievable.

As always, jmo....... 

Good lord, I said I considered many variables, including but not limited to, concert band, marching band, enrollment figures, scores and placements in SMBC and other circuits. I'm sorry you missed that part of my comments. 

As for middle schoolers in marching band, are you trying to bring up yet another argument? An argument can be made for both sides on that topic, but as long as it's not against the rules, bands will continue to use them. I personally don't see the problem in it, ands bands have proven that having "half of the band being middle schoolers" isn't a problem. Lets talk about how many state and national championships Bourbon County has with their middle schoolers versus lets say...Estill County who auditions their middle schoolers and selects a couple for the marching band. Doesn't matter how many times they had been to nationals or state finals, you brought up the discussion as to whether middle schoolers are good for a band program. Even Lafayette has been known to use 8th graders, so it is what it is. Calm down, get off the soap box about middle schoolers because it's not going to change. Do you think half these bands would be the size that they are without them? We don't have the school enrollments to support bands the size of Broken Arrow, Carmel, Avon, Texas, so honestly no, it won't make things better, and it's not a problem. 

I also stated that their "career" was their career at that particular school because being a "band director" is a career, whether they were at a school 4 years or 10 years or until retirement. Yes we have a problem with directors leaving after a couple of years in this state, and honestly that is a much bigger problem than worrying about the age of a programs members. You can't build a successful program only after 2 years and dip out for greener pastures when in all actuality your next selection isn't any better than your previous. Too many directors are in it for the money now-a-days instead of the purpose of their job which is to educate young minds about music and mold them into the best musicians possible.

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On 5/22/2021 at 12:15 PM, Ben Dover said:

I think those were once in a lifetime directors for Campbellsville, that just so happened to be twice in a lifetime. Some schools will only ever truly have success under one director, and after they leave no other director will be able to touch what they did there.

I.e.

Robert Harrod/Daniel Imes - Campbellsville

Eric Hale - Nicholas County

Charles Stewart - Ballard

Jordan Williams - Casey County

Jordan Williams - Paris

Tim Blevins - Boyle County

Gary Mullins - Calloway County

Kevin Christie - Rowan County

Phil Ashby - Warren Central

Mike Clark - Daviess County

Gerald Pickrell - Wayne County

Ann Porter - Central Hardin

Bob Gregg - Williamstown

Stephen Rice - Pikeville

Pauletta Smith - Hazard

Rob Bryant - East Jessamine

Daryl Angel - Dixie Heights

Daryl angel!😂

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18 hours ago, Ben Dover said:

Good lord, I said I considered many variables, including but not limited to, concert band, marching band, enrollment figures, scores and placements in SMBC and other circuits. I'm sorry you missed that part of my comments. 

As for middle schoolers in marching band, are you trying to bring up yet another argument? An argument can be made for both sides on that topic, but as long as it's not against the rules, bands will continue to use them. I personally don't see the problem in it, ands bands have proven that having "half of the band being middle schoolers" isn't a problem. Lets talk about how many state and national championships Bourbon County has with their middle schoolers versus lets say...Estill County who auditions their middle schoolers and selects a couple for the marching band. Doesn't matter how many times they had been to nationals or state finals, you brought up the discussion as to whether middle schoolers are good for a band program. Even Lafayette has been known to use 8th graders, so it is what it is. Calm down, get off the soap box about middle schoolers because it's not going to change. Do you think half these bands would be the size that they are without them? We don't have the school enrollments to support bands the size of Broken Arrow, Carmel, Avon, Texas, so honestly no, it won't make things better, and it's not a problem. 

I also stated that their "career" was their career at that particular school because being a "band director" is a career, whether they were at a school 4 years or 10 years or until retirement. Yes we have a problem with directors leaving after a couple of years in this state, and honestly that is a much bigger problem than worrying about the age of a programs members. You can't build a successful program only after 2 years and dip out for greener pastures when in all actuality your next selection isn't any better than your previous. Too many directors are in it for the money now-a-days instead of the purpose of their job which is to educate young minds about music and mold them into the best musicians possible.

"ands bands have proven that having "half of the band being middle schoolers" isn't a problem"........you can't be serious.............

I'm as calm as a cucumber and you're a squirrel in traffic. Ain't no soap box here. You can beat anything into a student if you're allowed to. I don't care if you're champions of the universe. It's a disservice to the profession and to our programs. As I said, I'm all for a mature 8th grade student, maybe a sibling, or you are in need to fill a hole. If the percentage of your band is more than 10-15% middle schoolers or you're using an excessive amount to "keep up the numbers", then you've got more significant problems and need to look in the mirror. It is NOT good for your program nor the student. I look at senior group pics on various FB pages, and see like 10 seniors in our state champion/finalist bands. Attrition is a natural part of it, but..............and don't even get me started when I go to look at how many all-state players come from champion/finalist groups. But hey, we got a ring..........

When we start realizing it's not always about "size", then we will begin to make progress in this state. Egos be damned.

Back on topic: any news on who will want/hired Campbellsville? Henderson North MS? YPAS? Bullitt East? Casey? ACS? Montgomery?? Lots of decent jobs out there if people will commit and stay more than a couple of years (excluding YPAS and ACS, although that job has a ton of issues with it).

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21 minutes ago, bdit said:

 

When we start realizing it's not always about "size", then we will begin to make progress in this state.

I've been telling women this for years!  Guess they just don't care about progress.

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3 hours ago, bdit said:

"ands bands have proven that having "half of the band being middle schoolers" isn't a problem"........you can't be serious.............

I'm as calm as a cucumber and you're a squirrel in traffic. Ain't no soap box here. You can beat anything into a student if you're allowed to. I don't care if you're champions of the universe. It's a disservice to the profession and to our programs. As I said, I'm all for a mature 8th grade student, maybe a sibling, or you are in need to fill a hole. If the percentage of your band is more than 10-15% middle schoolers or you're using an excessive amount to "keep up the numbers", then you've got more significant problems and need to look in the mirror. It is NOT good for your program nor the student. I look at senior group pics on various FB pages, and see like 10 seniors in our state champion/finalist bands. Attrition is a natural part of it, but..............and don't even get me started when I go to look at how many all-state players come from champion/finalist groups. But hey, we got a ring..........

When we start realizing it's not always about "size", then we will begin to make progress in this state. Egos be damned.

Back on topic: any news on who will want/hired Campbellsville? Henderson North MS? YPAS? Bullitt East? Casey? ACS? Montgomery?? Lots of decent jobs out there if people will commit and stay more than a couple of years (excluding YPAS and ACS, although that job has a ton of issues with it).

"Ain't no soap box here" but you decided to continue and write a short story about the topic. 

You do realize that a lot of the upper classmen in these bands quit to get jobs right? That's the thing, working when you turn 16, and not all jobs are going to work around your band schedule, so sometimes you have to make sacrifices and give up things you love to earn an income. We as adults should know all about this, but it seems that some tend to forget that. If you want to continue this argument, please feel free to dig up the years old thread about the topic. Things didn't change then, and I'm pretty sure they're not going to change now.

I've also time and time again stated that my post wasn't based solely on marching band, but that seems to be the one thing that you continue to grasp upon and refuse to let go, now on post 3 about it, but yet you're "as calm as a cucumber".

I'll let the topic die here, as I have no need nor want to continue this with you. You've said your piece, and me further thing topic just continues to give you the attention that you're seeking with the middle schooler debate. 

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